Elishima
Undertale Pass Holder
Let's-a-go!
Posts: 918
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Post by Elishima on Mar 25, 2016 21:23:53 GMT
Funny, my Mewtwo has never SD'd, and he only seems to lose against Charizard. You sure you're playing on the omega Boxing Ring stage? lol
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KawaiiLuma
Junior Member
Training Lucario for AWT #6. Gotta rekt the Pikachu Final Smash trolls.
Posts: 75
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Post by KawaiiLuma on Mar 25, 2016 21:45:16 GMT
Now that you guys mention it my Mewtwo only ever SD's on the left side. Odd. Mine only does it on the right...
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Post by KahunaLagoona on Mar 26, 2016 0:15:35 GMT
Guys, just what ever you do, don't enter Greninja lol Unless you're like 100% confident that your Greninja is a beast. In that case, go right ahead lol Eh... I think I'm going to take my chances.
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Elishima
Undertale Pass Holder
Let's-a-go!
Posts: 918
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Post by Elishima on Mar 26, 2016 1:04:36 GMT
Guys, just what ever you do, don't enter Greninja lol Unless you're like 100% confident that your Greninja is a beast. In that case, go right ahead lol Eh... I think I'm going to take my chances. Cool, at least someone has guts.
*claps*
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Post by KahunaLagoona on Mar 26, 2016 1:31:56 GMT
I have a Sheik dormant that I've yet to train that I want to pair her and Greninja up with next time there's a doubles - both of them have interesting nicknames (H20WRKS & GR8GNDRD8) but for the most part I want to see how Greninja works before the guide is released and compare the notes there and how he works out.
Given how I entirely forgot Pikachu's FS, I've started to train against it as well as Charizard and Lucario.
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Z
Full Member
Now I am become $wag, the moistener of your mothers' granny panties
Posts: 223
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Post by Z on Mar 26, 2016 15:03:12 GMT
After a night of test matches against multiple opponents on Omega Boxing Ring, Gyiyg only SD'd once, and that was only because the idiot was trying to dodge $wagDragon's Final Smash. I'm sorry y'all's Mewtwos are acting so suicidal, don't know what's up with that. Reeeeeeeaaaaallly regretting my decision to enter Mewtwo, he's very hit-and-miss. Maybe he'll go the distance, but I'm sure some Charizard will knock him down at some point.
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EPM
Quiet Member
I seek battle, not badges. Pride, not prizes. Mastery, not victory.
Posts: 35
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Post by EPM on Mar 26, 2016 16:38:12 GMT
I'm glad someone else can attest that Mewtwo can be trained out of Teleport-SDing. Anecdotes of Mewtwo only doing so off one side of the stage are particularly interesting. One thing I noticed when mine did this (and it still happens rarely) was it would do so away from me, never in close proximity.
What I think is the root cause for "Telecide" is that Mewtwo's AI is trying to experiment, as amiibo always do. Even heavily-trained amiibo will deviate in their habits for the sake of trying an alternative out to see how it works. The "medium" range, about half the distance of Final Destination, with Mewtwo in the air, seems to be the trigger condition for Teleciding. This is unsurprising, as this is the most uncertain range for almost any fighter. Think about it: The sheer number of motion options present a higher chance of making a poor choice, the situation is dangerous as it's very easy for an opponent to either juggle them or punish their landing (such as with a FC Shadow Ball in mirror matches), and the only option for most fighters is down-air or a relevant special move to try and ward off a foe. Teleport is a versatile "get out of there" option, with the bonus of being intangible during its movement.
The end result is that Mewtwo prioritizes escaping a dangerous situation (especially given its low weight, generous hitbox, and floaty jumps), Teleports away from its opponent, and proceeds to self-destruct.
If I had to guess, the AI is lacking some kind of flag on Teleport that says "check to make sure there's a surface to land on below the teleport destination", and has to learn that rule implicitly as a "don't use Teleport in this and that direction from these locations relative to the stage". Experience will eventually groom the issue out to a fluke rather than a habit.
I advise the Umbra Clock Tower stage to educate a Mewtwo amiibo about its teleport usage, as the secondary platforms shifting, while the primary stage remains fixed, is ideal.
Additionally teach it to teleport straight down to the ground or only at slight angles, rather than at full diagonal angles or sideways, when on the stage. No more than 45 degrees from straight down. This allows Mewtwo to escape the threat of being juggled, which it is quite right to consider, without chucking it off the stage for a stupid SD. Teleport has significantly less landing lag if it ends on the ground, rather than Mewtwo going into helpless state in the air and THEN landing. Combined with air dodge training and aerial Confusion usage as a deterrent, and Mewtwo can learn significantly better alternatives to what it's trying to do when Telecides happen.
I feel like that info should be in a separate thread, but I'll cross-post it in my Research Compilation in the future.
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Elishima
Undertale Pass Holder
Let's-a-go!
Posts: 918
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Post by Elishima on Mar 27, 2016 2:14:55 GMT
Interesting... So it is just experience based.
That's really interesting actually. To be honest, my Mewtwo has only ever done it twice, but that's only because I usually never play on the omega Boxing Ring.
I guess everybody's Mewtwo just has to get gud huh?
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Post by KahunaLagoona on Mar 28, 2016 2:26:51 GMT
I believe H20WRKS is as ready as he'll be. After the initial lv 50 training I chose three opponents outside Greninja to focus on: Pikachu, Charizard, and Lucario. With Smash Balls on. (Timer training was somewhat a bust as he always got the timers before I did.)
As it turns out, I'm actually pretty good at controlling Pikachu's FS - which after the third time I got to use it, H20WRKS was somewhat successful in dodging it entirely. Not only that but I think my Pikachu isn't bad, but considering I was merely mimicking what I had saw Pikachu amiibo do.
It also turns out I'm not very good at Lucario - like at all. H20WRKS would often hit me before I get an chance to do anything not Aura Sphere. But I do feel H20WRKS grasps the concept of 'Lucario gets stronger if it gets damaged' only I believe his mind is "Kill it as soon as possible"
Charizard is the middle ground, of all the pokemon barring Mewtwo, he's one of my easier to use characters, but I noticed amiibo often were unguarded with Zard's Down Smash, so that was one of the moves I focused on getting H20WRKS to avoid/dodge, the other being Up Smash.
Unfortunately in my training H20WRKS liked Up Smash itself a bit more often - as it was becoming his go-to move whenever I was on the ledge. It's fine when I was in the air, as both hits connect often, but then he got to a point of spamming it - while I'm sure I beat him out of it by punishing it, don't be surprised if he'll pull it out once in a while.
I also introduced him to Miiverse - regular mode, as I'm sure the Dank Meme stage is one Dan will use. First few matches he kinda glitched a bit, but eventually he felt at home.
One final note is I had not played him against Jigglypuff and Mewtwo - That was rectified. Although the time was short (2 matches each) I'm sure H20WRKS has some kind of handle against both characters. Mewtwo however might cause him trouble... I instead played Mewtwo as I usually do instead of how I thought a Mewtwo amiibo would fight.
After the initial training however, I noticed H20WRKS would roll away and jump whenever I got close - Eventually though, with the matches as they were, he got really good at approaching and attacking - to the point that the first match with Jigglypuff ended with 10 KOs, and that was the first time H20WRKS faced Jiggs. One of course was me missing Rollout and falling offstage, but still.
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Elishima
Undertale Pass Holder
Let's-a-go!
Posts: 918
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Post by Elishima on Mar 28, 2016 2:35:33 GMT
"Kill it as soon as possible"
lol, I lost it there.
Reminds me of something straight out of Tom and Jerry for whatever reason. I don't know how I connected the dots, I just did.
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Havok
Full Member
Posts: 152
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Post by Havok on Mar 28, 2016 12:36:19 GMT
Did some heavy duty training this weekend for AWT 6. Thought I'd post some vids to entertain you all.
Charizard vs Lucario - Round 1
Round 2 wouldn't let me post, but Charizard wins 2-1
Charizard vs Lucario Round 3
I know that Lucario is very good. I like him a lot, but here's why I am just iffy on entering him into AWT 6.
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Z
Full Member
Now I am become $wag, the moistener of your mothers' granny panties
Posts: 223
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Post by Z on Mar 29, 2016 0:37:58 GMT
Here's something that happened during Gyiyg's training. Don't blink:
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Elishima
Undertale Pass Holder
Let's-a-go!
Posts: 918
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Post by Elishima on Mar 29, 2016 2:06:19 GMT
What the crud, the 1st stock was gone in 3 hits...
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Z
Full Member
Now I am become $wag, the moistener of your mothers' granny panties
Posts: 223
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Post by Z on Mar 29, 2016 3:16:23 GMT
That is CritHit plus godly RNG luck (Lucario starting at 60% due to ImpTOAbl also helps). This is honestly a fluke that has never happened since, but goddamn it I couldn't be prouder of Gyiyg. Got a good feelin about AWT6.
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Elishima
Undertale Pass Holder
Let's-a-go!
Posts: 918
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Post by Elishima on Mar 29, 2016 21:56:23 GMT
Gyiyg OP confirmed
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