pkmnmaster
Junior Member
The SAT is horrible, take the ACT instead.
Posts: 75
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Post by pkmnmaster on Jun 4, 2016 23:43:57 GMT
It's hard to argue that Little Mac is ridiculously overpowered in the metagame, but it's still a shame that he's excluded from all the fun. So, I had a thought. In Amiibo Dan's tournaments, Little Mac doesn't seem to be as bad as a problem. This could mean that Little Mac is not as good in large tournaments, themed tournaments, and/or less competitive environments. I am trying to get money for a Powersaves to host tournaments, so I'd like to get everyone's input on the matter. I'm not good with explaining things, so don't be afraid to ask for clarification (I can see how the poll choices can be confusing).
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REDLx
Don't talk much, huh?
The SAT is horrible, but still take it.
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Post by REDLx on Jun 4, 2016 23:59:36 GMT
I think that Little Mac's performance in Dan's tournaments could be because of the sheer variety in amiibo. His tournaments have always been huge, so there are way more entrants, and some amiibo may be better equipped to take down Mac than others. Because it's a larger pool, there's a higher chance that we'll see one of those well-equipped amiibo win. While many of the regular tournaments have been growing in size, they've all banned Little Mac, so we don't know if this variety would knock Mac down a peg. I would certainly be interested in seeing if Little Mac would still dominate in tournaments like Bysshe's and Skymiibo's now that there are more people participating. So I say let him in when the pool's big enough. On another note, I think that amiibo who have lots of experience against Mac tend to do much better against him. My Toon Link, for example, is no champion and may very well be my weakest overall amiibo, but he also consistently does the best against my Little Mac out of all the amiibo pkmnmaster, our friend ToolBox Theory, and I own. So maybe if those trainers with Powersaves were able to save the tournament data from their amiibo who fight Little Mac, Little Mac wouldn't always be such a threat. I'm ready to see Mac back on the tournament scene.
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walui
Junior Member
Meme Queen Supreme
Posts: 86
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Post by walui on Jun 5, 2016 0:03:28 GMT
I don't like the idea of banning any amiibo from tournaments.
I like to think that any amiibo can be a champion if trained enough in the right way, so banning an amiibo because a lot of people just so happen to be able to train that amiibo to be a champion easier than others are able to train other amiibo makes no sense to me.
Little Mac, and all amiibo really, should be allowed in all tournaments.
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Yung Puff
Undertale Pass Holder
Third.
Posts: 214
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Post by Yung Puff on Jun 5, 2016 0:46:40 GMT
You probably need thousands of perfect shield matchup experience to even stand a chance against Tanky Mac.
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staypuft
Quiet Member
I really wish I were less of a thinking man, and more a fool who's not afraid of rejection
Posts: 42
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Post by staypuft on Jun 5, 2016 0:52:52 GMT
I think it should come down to the tournament host. If they think he shouldn't be in, so be it; if they think he should participate, let him. I feel like Little Mac is such a threat that any amiibo worth their plastic should in some shape or form prepare for him.
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pkmnmaster
Junior Member
The SAT is horrible, take the ACT instead.
Posts: 75
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Post by pkmnmaster on Jun 5, 2016 1:08:59 GMT
I think it should come down to the tournament host. If they think he shouldn't be in, so be it; if they think he should participate, let him. I feel like Little Mac is such a threat that any amiibo worth their plastic should in some shape or form prepare for him. I was talking about for tournaments that me and REDLx may do once we get a Powersaves. You may be able to tell what we think based on our posts here, but that's not important. What's important is what the entrants want. If you don't want Little Mac, he'll be banned. If you want him, he's in. We'll probably end up doing tournaments with and without Little Mac if people are divided. (I think I went off topic a bit...) Anyway, make sure you vote and, preferably, voice your opinions/reasoning for your decision.
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staypuft
Quiet Member
I really wish I were less of a thinking man, and more a fool who's not afraid of rejection
Posts: 42
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Post by staypuft on Jun 5, 2016 1:26:21 GMT
Again, I feel like it is up to the tournament host. If you guys feel a certain way about putting Mac in a tourney, then have that be the stipulation for having Mac in - whether that be number of entrants or "S tiers only tourney" or whatever.
I'll vote "in certain themed tourneys" since I feel that best describes my feelings on this matter.
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REDLx
Don't talk much, huh?
The SAT is horrible, but still take it.
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Post by REDLx on Jun 5, 2016 1:28:50 GMT
Though let it be known that if it were up to me alone Little Mac would be in every tournament, so at some point or another, you'll probably see him in one of our tournaments.
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Z
Full Member
Now I am become $wag, the moistener of your mothers' granny panties
Posts: 223
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Post by Z on Jun 5, 2016 2:26:44 GMT
Aight. The big problem with Mac is his sheer godlike power; Atk boosts and bonuses like CritHit, ImpAtk, & ImpToA can turn his fists into instruments of death that break shields like so many glasses at Jewish weddings and have one-shot potential. Oh, and Slip-Counter reflects 1.3x dmg? Fantastic. The bigger problem with Mac is his speed and size; the Bronx Bomber's a very small target who knows how to dance. The biggest problem with Mac is all of the above plus the Amiibo AI's precision and adaptability. Like a real boxer, Mac learns to read his opponents early in the match in order to counter their assault. If Mac loses a match, chances are he'll rally for the next one. Mac also simply doesn't make those certain fatal mistakes a human player sometimes makes. Conversely, his opponent's AI is extremely averse to gimping Mac during recovery, unlike a human player. Simply put, Little Mac is too good for the Anything-Goes format that is the Dojo's gold standard. To make Mac tolerable would require the banning of certain bonuses like the ones mentioned in this paragraph's second sentence, and that would only hurt lower-tier Amiibo who pretty much rely on CritHit to kill most of the time. Conversely, forbidding only Mac from using certain spreads and/or putting a cap on his Atk boost would only be unfair to the trainer entering Mac, and that's a slippery slope that would lead to nerfs for other high-tier Amiibo like Bowser & Ganon. His ban-hammering was the simplest solution to a very big problem.
Now that's not to say Mac should be banned across the board; in Vanilla, he's a much more fair opponent because he doesn't have access to the boosts that turn him into a guy who's a hero for fun.
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Post by TheBlueTrainer on Jun 5, 2016 3:06:05 GMT
Mac has always been overpowered, he's one of those that's good even without proper training. Should a well trained amiibo someone put loads of effort into lose to a random level 50 Mac that only wins due to equipment and shield breaking? No.
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Post by Roflcopter on Jun 5, 2016 4:19:16 GMT
One of Little Mac's biggest reasons for why he's so effective in the amiibo metagame is partially due to how powerful his smash attacks are, but that's only part of a bigger picture.
As a character, Little Mac was MADE to be grounded. He's naturally bad in the air, while usually in Super Smash Bros, aerial combat is somewhat useful. When we're training amiibo to avoid jumping and to play defensively, we're usually helping them fight the vast majority of amiibo, but we're putting them at risk against that one character. Little Mac specializes in staying on the ground, and when the opponent's combat style encourages him to do the same, it's when he truly shines.
I think that Little Mac's position in the fed metagame is a bit too powerful to be allowed at all times, but that this removal should be limited to the fed amiibo fights only, as the vanilla variant of the bruiser is a rather fair fight.
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Post by KahunaLagoona on Jun 5, 2016 4:57:36 GMT
I think it should be up to the host, honestly. Mac's issue is basically outlined by Roflcopter - The amiibo metagame is tailored to his strengths and a fed Mac can literally cover all of his weaknesses: More speed to increase his air speed and jump height, buffering his recovery. More defense to keep him from flying, taking a lot of damage before doing so and likely killing before that chance presents itself. More Attack to break shields and kill people early before they get rid of him. And that's not even getting into the large amounts of versatile equipment given to him. Of course, there's mainstays like Critical-Hit Capability and Explosive Perfect Shield, but any trade-off boosts, anything that enhance Smash Attacks, and even Thistle Jump (Made a Tanky Mac with low speed? Well, Thistle Jump lowers Fall Speed - meaning he could come back from things an ordinary Tanky Setup could DREAM of coming back from) could make Mac a beast. However, I don't really condone banning a character - I'm fine with it being something up to the host, I think that if an amiibo can beat a Mac, it should be an accomplishment.
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REDLx
Don't talk much, huh?
The SAT is horrible, but still take it.
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Post by REDLx on Jun 5, 2016 21:33:07 GMT
While I understand that Little Mac is certainly an amazing amiibo who is advantaged by the metagame, I'd also like to note that everyone's kind of just accepted that he's unbeatable. In Dan's tournaments, lots of Little Macs always get knocked out. And even a fed Little Mac can still be beat. If my Toon Link can beat my Little Mac, and tons of others can beat Little Mac in Dan's tournaments, I don't see why we should accept that Little Mac will inevitably beat everyone else.
I say again that if amiibo had more experience against him, he wouldn't be as indomitable. I for one am willing to share my Mac's data so that we as a community can adapt to and welcome back Little Mac. While I understand that not everyone has Powersaves and can take advantage of this, I do want to start to level the playing field so we can dispel the myth of Little Mac being impossibly overpowered.
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Post by KahunaLagoona on Jun 6, 2016 0:45:31 GMT
I say again that if amiibo had more experience against him, he wouldn't be as indomitable. I for one am willing to share my Mac's data so that we as a community can adapt to and welcome back Little Mac. While I understand that not everyone has Powersaves and can take advantage of this, I do want to start to level the playing field so we can dispel the myth of Little Mac being impossibly overpowered. I don't think it's the lack of experience against Mac - Plenty of us even own Mac. (I have about four) It's just that the metagame highly favors him because all the flaws Mac has are by large nonexistent when you have Aerials being checked by Perfect Shield, amiibo unwilling to take risk in gimping recoveries, and Mac's best attacks are largely ground based with Super Armor on Smashes. But again, like I said, it's up to the host. People here are just as afraid of Mac and willing to ban him because it could be considered a 'cheap' loss for Mac's opponent (regardless of how well-versed in fighting against Mac they can be) as much as Dan considers Explosive Perfect Shield 'cheap' whereas the community here considers the bonus essential (And it DOES showcase some cheapness, but I've lost 1st round with amiibo that have that bonus equipped - so even I can't call EPS broken or worth banning.)
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Elishima
Undertale Pass Holder
Let's-a-go!
Posts: 918
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Post by Elishima on Jun 6, 2016 1:01:11 GMT
Ok, so I've been wanting to talk about this for awhile. Personally, I think Little Mac is just too good in the metagame we've built right now. Like Roflcopter and KahunaLagoona have pointed out (and what I've been saying for months), he's literally decimating the competition for the soul reason of being a ground fighter in a grounded, defensive/counterattack oriented metagame. It also doesn't help that amiibo are also just really stupid when it comes to blocking Mac's smash attacks. Sorry Mac, you're just too OP for everyone else right now.
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